Subject: SURVEY: Music notation programs for the Amiga
From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:20:57 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.reviews

[NOTE:	This survey was originally posted in comp.sys.amiga.audio
	March 1992.  The topic has come up several times again since I
	did this, so I am reposting it in comp.sys.amiga.reviews and
	archiving it at the c.s.a.reviews ftp site.]

	In March 1992, I asked for information about music notation
packages for the Commodore Amiga.  Here is a summary of the results.
Followups are directed to the newsgroup comp.sys.amiga.audio.

	It seems there are only 4 alternatives if you want to do music
notation on the Amiga.

(1)	DELUXE MUSIC CONSTRUCTION SET (DMCS), by Electronic Arts.
(2)	THE COPYIST DTP, by Dr. T's Software
(3)	Buy the AMAX II Macintosh emulator and run Mac software like FINALE,
	by Coda.  Notation works, but MIDI input and output do not.
	[NOTE:  AMAX II+ is supposed to handle MIDI properly.]
(4)	Use MusicTeX, a set of TeX macros for typesetting music.

	Of these options, DMCS is the most limited.  It is easy to use, but
insufficient for "real" music scoring.  COPYIST produces excellent-quality
output, but the program suffers from annoying limitations.  FINALE does run
on the Amiga (verified on an A3000 running 2.x) under AMAX II, but only the
non-MIDI operations.  (AMAX II+ supposedly runs FINALE with its MIDI
operations working.)

	In my opinion, the notation possibilities for the Amiga are sadly
limited.  I have written letters to every major company that has a notation
program for IBM, Mac, and Atari computers, asking for an Amiga port.  If you
are interested, please write a letter to these companies yourself.  Ads and
addresses can be found in any issue of KEYBOARD or ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN.

	Thanks to everyone who responded:  Ray Brooks, Frank Cunningham,
Glade Diviney, Dale Gold, Esa Haapaniemi, Dean Hansen, John Ladasky, Chee
Leong Lee, Ranier Mager, Dave McCrea, and Michael Whitten!  Here are edited
versions of the responses I received.

=========================== BEGINNING OF RESPONSES ========================

From: Michael Whitten <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 14:52:53 CST

	I use Dr.T's Copyist DTP for my needs.  Compared to what is out
there for Amiga, it is certainly the best - it is the only software I know of
specifically targeted for Amiga music notation.  Like all quality packages,
power=learning curve and DTP has that, all right.  Its output, however, is
superb.

	I work at home on my Amiga, use CMD to redirect DTP's output to a
diskfile, then redirect that to my HP laser at work with results that are
astonishing. You must realize, though, that there are many flaming hoops to
jump thru with it in order to arrive at a professional score.  DTP's input
can be a midi file, or it can be a KCS file.  I use the latter because I'm a
fanatic KCS user.  The KCS file must be an .ALL file with the music in TRACK
mode; Copyist will print the staves in descending order of music tracks, ie,
TRACK 1 is staff 1, etc.

	Copyist handles just about everything except lyrics.  It has all the
traditional western music symbols from legato curves to barred stems, from
odd signatures to appogiatura.  It can quantize on user-input increments.
It does divisi, ensemble bracketing, well...just name it.  It can even take
a score and convert it back to a midi file....lots of hoops in that so its
not as useful as you'd think.

	Although I don't have it, yet, there is commercial software out
there (can't remember the name) that is able to read a Deluxe Music
Construction Set file and translate it perfectly into Copyist.  I think it
would be extremely useful.

	Copyist is a memory hog and the user could benefit a great deal by
having extra ram (I have just 3M), some flicker fixing, and acceleration,
since it tends to plod; I have found no serious bugs, though....its pretty
solid.  Laser output makes it shine.

	Feel free to ask me questions; I don't use it that much since I no
longer study composition formally.  But if you want to bring out the visual
as well as the aural beauty of your latest symphonic work, then Copyist can
do it.  (Does parts automagically, too.)

	I don't have a very clinical approach to software evaluations, as
you can tell.  But, I'll try to give you my input.

>        Did you read the reviews of Copyist DTP in KEYBOARD or ELECTRONIC
>MUSICIAN?  They listed some major flaws in the program; have they been
>fixed in your version?  (What version do you use?)

I try to avoid those magazines. I'm using version 1.61 of DTP.

(items deleted)
Yes. Alas and alack, most of those are true.  Its a dog of a program.
Once I understood those awful quirks, though, I got over it. I would've had
to have changed platforms to get improvement.  If you are a skilled dodgeball
player, it helps.  None of those things, though, prevented me from making it
do exactly what I wanted to do.  A couple of things, though, about those
items you listed:  there is a status line with page number in the title bar
and there is a vertical scroll bar on the right of the screen.  Mouse is
definitely used for note input, but implemented poorly.  Chords with half-
steps print just fine.  And yeah, that auto-wraparound and undo are sorely
needed, all right.......Ouch! Damn!

>       Finally, how well "Amiga-ised" is it (menus, gadgets, windows,
>etc.)?  Does it have an ARexx port?
Atari or IBM port job by David Silver, so hardly a soulful 'Amiga-isation'.
Standard drop-down menus, string gads, windows, though.  No ARexx port; does
do macros and a few usefule ones are supplied.

I'm don't think DrT has plans to upgrade Copyist; they're a strange outfit
but one of the 2-3 companies doing SERIOUS midi on the Amiga.  They could
stand some true competition....it would help their software's quality.
They could also stand some true Amiga programmers...........UH, OH.......
Help!...I'm another Amiga user caught in the mental drain of the wish-trap.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ray Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 16:07:18 -0500

I use Copyist DTP on the Amiga, and am well satisfied with it.  I also own
and use KCS Level II 3.0, with it's QuickScore program.  I am NOT familiar
with other programs, so I can't do A/B comparisons.  Let me know
specifically what you want to know, and I will try to answer your questions.

Some of your problems I can help with; others, not.  I have version 1.63 of
Copyist.

>No automatic wraparound...

	Alas, this IS true, as far as I know.  Since I generally import KCS
	.ALL files into Copyist, it is not a big problem for me.  I proof the
	unedited Copyist file, and if it doesn't look approximately right, I
	just fix the KCS file, and re-import.  For those who write directly
	into Copyist, it would be more of a problem.	

>Poor printing of half note chords with half step...

	Chords are sometimes bunched up in an unreadable manner;  For
	me, a bigger problem is that accidentals are overlaid with each
	other, so they have to be edited.

>If time signature changes, bar lines get positioned incorrectly...

	If I'm doing a piece with time changes, I convert the MIDI score
	with no bar lines (a option, along with key signature, etc.), and
	place bar lines myself.  Copyist recognizes only one time signature.

>No status line....

	not true, at least as stated.  Pages number appears at the top of
	the screen, and measure numbers appear at the beginning of each line.

>Onscreen ties do not match printed version..(..too short).

	Haven't had this problem; But, I don't have a laser printer. Is that
	where the problem is?  (Copyist has PostScript capabilities)

>Mouse is not used for entering notes...

	Yes and no.  There is a clipboard page where one can grab symbols
	with the mouse, and paste them into the score.  User-defined symbols
	are also possible.  The mouse is used for editing (cut&paste,
	deleting items selectively (only stems, only text, etc.)), but
	keystrokes are also supported.

	The main problem with the program is Amiga-related.  One can see
only half a page at once, and there is a flicker in the hi-res mode.
Copyist has appeared for IBM, so you might look at that...

	ARexx is not supported, BUT Dr. T sequencers and Copyist can run
multitasked.  A MIDI file can be imported directly from KCS.

>No "undo" command...

	True, and a MAJOR hassle!

	BTW, you might take a look at KCS sometime; the QuickScore feature
automaticallyconverts KCS tracks, and, though uneditable, can configure
scores so that parts are in different keys, clefs, etc.  It does a decent
job of printing, also...  QuickScore multitasks in the "MPE" mode, similar
to arexx.  KCS without Level IIis not very expensive.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Frank Cunningham)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 11:50:24 EST

	Well, my wife is the musician and she hasn't used Copyist in years.
Her needs were to create scores from existing parts for a classical flute
quartet. We set up DMCS and used MIDI data entry from a CZ-101 to get the
raw data. DMCS printing and score editing was marginal so we got an early
version of Copyist which claimed to take DMCS files.

	Unfortunately it did not take MIDI-generated DMCS files in a
reasonable way-- can you count the dozens of leger (sp) lines.

	The Dr. T sequencer (KCS) of that vintage was so user-hostile to a
non-electronic musician that we just gave up on it, although DrT recommended
it as the preferred MIDI input system to Copyist.  Copyist is also no great
shakes on user-friendliness, although I'm not sure any engraving quality
score-editor can be unless written by someone who is both a musician and
typographer.

	My wife has moved on to other things, and we bought a 386 PC with
windows and a laser-printer. When she returns to score editing, it will
probably be in that environment, which although piggy, is considerably more
straightforward to use.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: (Dave McCrea) <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 16:31:30 CST

	I have been using Dr. T's Copyist DTP on an Amiga 2500 and 500 for
about a year. The package works fine and gives great output to HP Laserjet
and Postscript printers. I usually print scores using my own 9 pin Epson
which gives acceptable results for my or band members use. I also have
access to a Next computer which is a Postscript device including a 400 DPI
printer. Simply download the font (Sonata font included in DTP) and presto!
- publication quality. Other good points are good quantization (see below
for caveat), good drum clef features, instant part transposition for those
silly metallic instruments (i.e. sax and trumpet), and does not crash. 

      I like the compatibility between The Copyist and KCS 3.5.  One can work
on tracks in KCS and import them directly into The Copyist. Even on an Amiga
500 with a single floppy, the speed is acceptable. For serious work on
orchestral scores, an accelerated system is recommended. As far as I am
concerned, a 500 with 3 Megs and a hard disk is just fine.

      The Copyist is not hard to use but - you must start with the tutorial
in the manual. Trying to figure out the program in any other way is a waste
of time.  There are some annoyances, however. Sometimes funky lines (dotted
eighth's sixteenth rests) are not transcribed correctly from a KCS file. In
such cases, one has to resort to manual entry for part of the score. The
Copyist is quite smart about manual entry and allows proper cutting and
pasting so that many lines can be moved, repeated and motifs transposed
simply. Another weak area is in the user interface when importing KCS
tracks. There is a screen (choose clef, choose which tracks to score) that
must be edited every time that tracks are imported.  While this only takes a
few seconds, it is irritating. Finally, there is no UNDO so that a save to
disk is recommended before attempting a large (potentially catastrophic)
manoeuvre. 

      All in all, the combination of KCS 3.5 ($225) and The Copyist DTP
(about $175) is very good value. KCS 3.5 uses a subset of the Copyist to
give very fast "quick scores" of simple parts. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Dean Hansen [CP])
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 92 17:05:22 EDT

	I have an interest in music notation packages, particularly ones
which also include the guitar TAB style.  I don't know of any except Deluxe
Music Construction Set.  It has a graphic WYSIWUG interface, and can print
out scores.  It has most standard music symbols, and handles lyrics and other
items like repeats etc.  If you get any worthwhile information on a package,
or even a small PD program, could you forward it on to me.  It would be a
great help.  Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Rainer V Mager" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 92 02:54:50 -0500

	I too have used DMCS and it is limited in some ways, but it is nice
that you CAN listen to you composition.  I have seen a program for the MAC
that seems to be nice, but I never used it or had any chance to really look
at it and I do not know the name of it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Dale Gold)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 92 19:22:38 PST

	I think we chatted a bit when I was working with a programmer to try
to write a decent PD Amiga notation program.  I learned a lot about music
typesetting, but maybe it was too much because the programmer `got busy with
other things' - or maybe he just got cold feet when he found out how
complicated it really is!  He says the idea is still simmering on the back
burner, but I've stopped holding my breath.

>Is anybody using Dr. T's "Copyist" or "Copyist DTP", on
>*any* computer (not necessarily an Amiga)?

	I've only used the demo version.  It won't print, so I don't know
how good it really is, but I imagine that the output of the DTP version is
pretty respectable.  I'm sure it's the best we've got on the Amiga, but I
found the interface to be clumsy.  It's been awhile...  it just seemed to
have the menus and so on arranged in ways that seemed odd and non-inuitive to
me, and some things seemed not to be possible at all.  Bear in mind that
there was little or no documentation with the demo and I might have missed a
lot.  It does have the advantage of a pretty useful macro facility, which is
very handy.

	It seemed to be limited in a lot of ways compared to what is taken
for granted on other platforms.

> Is anybody using a Mac or PC music notation program on an
> Amiga, using a Bridgeboard or Amax or other emulator?

	I've asked that on the net a couple of times in the past, and got
just the same response that you did.  I've tried an old version of IBM's
Personal Composer using IBem, and had no luck getting it to do anything
useful, although it did start up.

>Are there any decent Amiga notation packages?

Copyist seems to be all there is.

	Well, I've gone with MusicTeX for the time being.  You have to know
a fair bit about TeX to use it, and it can be painfully slow to use, but the
output is generally very good, and with a few clever CED [Cygnus Ed, an
Amiga text editor] macros it's getting easier all the time.  It seems to be
very flexible, although it's basically designed for traditional things.  If
you know enough TeX, you can invent your own macros to do lots of things
that aren't included in the package.  Dunno if you know anything about TeX -
you have to write lots of ommands in a text editor and then compile it. It's
not an ideal situation for music.  

	My son was working on a clickety-click interface for me, which seems
to be a pretty trivial project, but his hard drive died, and I don't know how
long it'll be before he gets anything accomplished.

	I've got an SMUS-to-TeX program which somebody started and never
finished.  As it is, it's pretty worthless - doesn't handle chords, and
makes far too many errors.  There's a bit of potential in that though, since
you could use DMCS for a front end and then use MusicTeX for the
fine-tuning.  Or quickly convert old SMUS files to something worth
printing.  I *loathe* DMCS, but it is pretty easy to get basic stuff entered
pretty quickly.

	Well, here we sit and wait... I hope you'll post an article here or
email me if you come up with any answers.  I haven't seen anything on any
other computer that I'd like to use as much as my Amiga with Wshell, Arexx,
etc but this is the one area that keeps making me think I should just give up
and buy something else.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Glade Diviney)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 92 09:50:48 -0800

	I'm a CS/Music student here at Oregon State University, and I too
have been appalled at the lack of music notation software (heaven knows, it
would have been handy during my music theory classes...)(

	The best notation program for the Amiga, as far as I know, is the
Deluxe Music Contruction Set (DMCS.)  It is an old piece of software, and I
haven't heard anything about it being updated.  Besides, its output looks
pretty crummy...(another case of printouts in the same resolution as the
screen...bleah.)

	I've been seriously considering writing a good music notation program
on my own.  I wonder if there's any money to be made.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (John J. Ladasky II)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 92 11:55:26 PST

	I use Copyist DTP on the Atari ST.  It is basically a music
typewriter.  This means that you get all kinds of control over the
positioning of symbols.  That's the good part... the bad part is that the
program has very little "cognitive understanding" of the symbols.  The
PostScript output is great, but there are a few glitches - nost notably,
slurs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Esa Haapaniemi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1992 13:27:46 +0200

	I have two friends, that use Copyist DTP (?), one is a "pro" as he
is a church musician, and the other makes it for fun.

	I did try to run DMCS from our university Macintoshes on Amiga w.
A-MaxII (2.06), but I couldn't run it long. The A-Max side bombed.

	If you need only notation, then I suggest to get MusicTeX. If you
need to play and here the music, I suggest B&P Pro. As I told earlier, I
haven't used any other music programs on Amiga, as MED.  BTW I remember from
the readme file on latest MED (3.22) that T.Kinnunen is selling his Octamed
2.0 that has notation. Cannot verify this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chee Leong Lee <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1992 11:31:29 -0500 (EST)

[He runs Finale 2.6.1 on his Amiga 3000 using AMAX II version 2.0.6!]

	AMAX does not use any Preferences printer.  But you can find printer
drivers for your HP LaserJet IIP on the Mac side.  I have a HP DeskJet 500,
and I use a software package called JetLink Express, which provides printer
drivers for Hp DeskJets, LaserJets, Canon BubbleJets and many other dot
matrix printers.  The printout is excellent for all my software (Finale,
WordPerfect 2.0, Canvas 3.0). However, you need Amax V2.0.6 to get the
drivers to work. I'm sure the quality from a LaserJet will be much better.

> (3) What happens when you try to use the MIDI functions?  Does the program
> crash, or just not do anything?

	Well, it really depends on what MIDI functions you try to invoke.  If
you do a force send MIDI or the like, you'll most likely hang the system.
Since the MIDI functions in Finale is pretty much isolated, you can use the
program for the other functions but not even touch the MIDI functions.
However, without the MIDI capabilities, Finale works like a lion with all
its teeth extracted.  The beauty of Finale is the way you can create print
music with the entry of notes/chords from your synthesizer.  It is a pity
Amax 2 does not work with MIDI stuff.  But Amax II+ claims to be able to
handle that and I'm eagerly waiting for its arrival.

>(4) What model Amiga do you have?  Does AMAX use your hard drive?

	I have an A3000/25Mhz/6MB.  Yes, Amax uses my harddrive.  In fact I
have a separate internal harddrive for my Amax stuff.  But there should be
no problem if you want to partition a single harddrive into an amiga
partition and an Amax Partition.  The amax partition will be totally
invisible in AmigaDOS. (You'll have to assigned the amax partition as
'reserved' in AmigaDOS.)  When Amax is invoked, the amax partition/Harddrive
will automatically boot up.

============================ END OF RESPONSES =============================

	 I hope this survey was useful to some people!

                                                        Dan

 //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett -- Dept of Computer Science, Lederle Graduate Research Center |
| University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA  01003  --  [email-masked] |
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////

---

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